I’m just back home in rural Oxfordshire 12 hours after leaving for That London and my first live view of The Arsenal this season. This will be another somewhat impressionistic account of the match as I’m very far from qualified to provide any kind of in-depth analysis of what happened and events demonstrate that I am unable to remember precise details of what happened and I failed to take any notes at the time.
I’m also writing this before watching Match of the Day or reading any reports and relying solely on my sadly fallible memory.
First half
The first half resembled a training ground game of attack versus defence. Southampton had the ball in the Arsenal half and around our penalty box for the first couple of minutes without doing anything much. When their possession eventually broke down, the Arsenal took the ball up the other end and seemed to keep it there for the next forty-odd minutes without, to be honest, ever threatening to do much. I caught sight of the first half statistics on the Big Screen at half time; as far as I remember they were Arsenal – Shots: 10, On Target 3, Southampton – Shots: 2, On Target 0. I couldn’t remember any Southampton shots but on the other hand I didn’t remember Arsenal having had 10, either. At some point I remember wondering whether it might take a Southampton goal to wake up the home side, but my next thought was certainly “Settle down PanG, that way lies madness”.
I had done quite a bit of reading during the week in preparation for writing this report (honest), and watched at least one video about all the problems that Arsenal are causing to opponents at set pieces. It seems that the Southampton staff had also seen this as the sight of seven defenders forming a cordon around Ramsdale at corners was a familiar feature of the first 45 minutes.
Half time – The Arsenal 0 – 0 Southampton
The second half started much the same way as the first, with Southampton taking the ball up the field in the first few minutes. Sadly, ten minutes in, my foolish first-half musing came to fruition as Southampton scored. It’s not the kind of event that I like to dwell upon; as far as I recall, the goal came from a ball through the inside right channel and things developed slowly enough for me to see that something had gone amiss and we might be in trouble here.
The Arsenal 0 – 1 Southampton (Archer 55 min)
The atmosphere around block 113 was subdued; disappointment rather than anger and certainly not panic. The team on the pitch seemed to think similarly as they continued to play in much the same way as before; maybe bolstered by the thought that Mikel Arteta knows what he’s doing and his training and tactics are probably valid. Sure enough, a couple of minutes later the equaliser came, courtesy of £60 million flop, Kai Havertz.
The Arsenal 1-1 Southampton (Hazertz 57 min)
Shortly after the equaliser went in, Arteta made three substitutions, wit Sterling, Jesus and Jorghino going off to be replaced by Trossard, Martinelli and Merino. This seemed to galvanise the Arsenal team who upped their pace and continued to turn the screw. Eight minutes later the ball was played in to Martinelli, cutting in from the left who put the ball past Ramsdale and the Arsenal into the lead.
(It’s quite possible that my memory has let me down and that it was the first goal, that found Havertz cutting in from the left. I can only remember one of the two goals and I’m pretty sure it was the one that Martinelli scored.)
The Arsenal 2-1 Southampton (Martinelli 68 min)
The atmosphere now considerably brighter, the Arsenal continued to press and Southampton continued not to have much answer. After 20 minutes of pressure, with the clock running down, the third goal came.
I haven’t forgotten what happened in the build up to this goal, I genuinely didn’t see it at the time. Reconstructing what I did see, an Arsenal attack broke down and the Southampton defence was calmly passing it from their right to their left. I had a look upfield to see what passing options they had on when there was an almighty roar and I looked up to see the ball in the Southampton goal. I have seen a replay, on the big screen in the stadium from which I learned that it was Saka who had scored, but am left none the wiser as to where he had come from, how the ball had found its way to the back of the net, or indeed how the Southampton defence came to have the ball in the first place.
The Arsenal 3-1 Southampton (Saka 88 min)
With the team now well on top, it came as a pleasant surprise when nine minutes of extra time were signaled, but they were unable to find a fourth goal.
Full time: The Arsenal 3-1 Southampton.
A few final impressions – I was looking forward to seeing some of the new signings (or close approach) since last season, and they didn’t disappoint. A couple of tackles from Calafiori where he took the ball off a Southampton player and ended up on one knee with the opponent behind him and time t oget up and pass to a teammate will live long in the memory. Merino looked the business when he came on on the hour mark. Sadly, I missed out on a view of Timber after last season’s dramatic failure to make it to the Forest game. Saliba (I think) also made a couple of breathtaking tackles, taking the ball cleanly to put a complete full stop to dangerous Southampton attacks.
It was all a little bit flat, to be honest. A first half in which we seemed to do all the right things but got no reward was followed by a second in which we conceded a goal but kept our heads to score three without further concession. It just seemed to be another day at the office – not a bad one (we won) – but not a good one (we went one down). On the other hand, after a few weeks where we were scoring regularly from corners we got three from open play this afternoon.
I continue to be extraordinarily impressed by the ball-playing abilities of the Arsenal defenders and the hard work put in by the attackers. This is a really good team; there’s a good chance that it will prove to be a great one. I reckon that a trophy can’t be far away.
Props to Aaron Ramsdale who applauded the Arsenal fans as he made his way from the goal he’d been defending in the second half to acknowledge to Southampton fans at the other end. Props too to the Arsenal fans who applauded right back. Finally, props to Arteta who came over and gave him a big hug.
Embed from Getty ImagesPostscript
I went with SIL as usual, and as has become our habit we stopped for a post-match meal at an Italian eaterie on the Holloway Road (thanks for the recommendation a year or two back, Countryman 100). We fell into conversation with three guys at the next table who had also been to the game (one an American, another from Ireland). As they left, they said something which might have been that they had paid for our meal and drinks. When we came to settle up a bit later, the restaurant staff confirmed that I hadn’t misheard! Thank you very much fellers – I heard you say that you’d be coming to the Liverpool game together later in the season. I hope you have a good time then as well.
Three points and a free dinner. Sounds like a win-win sort of a day, PG.
Thanks Pangloss, glad you had an enjoyable day out! An entertaining report with a free happy ending, what’s not to like?
I didn’t see the game but have seen the goals – it was indeed Gabi M for the second after a clever ball in from Bukayo. The third goal came when the Southampton defender, Sugawara, didn’t see Bukayo behind him (I assume) and simply laid a shot on the plate, our Starboy isn’t one to look a gift defender in the mouth and promptly slotted home.
Kai slotted home the first with a ruthless shot from about 15 yards out – Rambo had no chance.
I saw that Saka has moved to 7th already on the all-time assist list, overtaking the one and only Robert Pires. He will one day be in the rarefied country air of Cesc, Thierry and God.
The telling stat of the day was that we had a touch in the Soton box every minute and a half on average; they had a touch in our box every 12.4 minutes.
PG, I was remiss earlier in not thanking you for your impressions of the afternoon, which were, as OM says, entertaining and, I would add, captured the ebb and flow of the game well.
Of course I don’t like conceding goals especially at home but if you then equalize quickly it is great for morale, both team and crowd. It feels like we did that more a couple of seasons ago but anyway a great habit.
Cheers, Pangloss!
Fair to say that overall we didn’t even give Ramsdale a chance to have the match of his life. I can remember only one save in each half.
We often talk about a game of two halves. This was a game of two thirds and a third! Our rotation bringing in Sterling and Jesus disrupted our rhythm a bit but also served to underline how valuable Trossard and Martinelli are and taking off Jorginho for Merino gave us greater physicality .
I’ve seen the last three games and we made unnecessarily hard work of both league matches. I hope they didn’t represent a day at the office going forwards and they bore no relation to that excellent performance against PSG .
Southampton hit the woodwork twice and were quite enterprising in the second half but they can’t defend and their passing out from the back got increasingly kamikaze as the game went on . They also had a very promising winger in Dibling whose dribbling ( geddit!) caused Calafiori problems. As I said last night Calafiori is an uplifting presence but he gets run past by very fast wingers . He got skinned by Dibling in the second half .
Arteta subbed early and well and Havertz and Saka were their excellent selves . My new near neighbour in the North Bank , Bath, and I were saying pre-match that Havertz , apart from his other qualities , gives a very good Alan Smith impression as a target man. Saka was also very good, he got the assist for the third when the Japanese defender dispossessed Trossard but lost control of the ball.
Three important points
Thanks Pangloss,
Impressionistic almost ethereal review with, as noted above, a happy ending.
Will you be trying to get tickets for the Liverpool game now with the possibility hanging of another free feed?
UTA.
An entertaining read, Pangloss, nicely categorised as ‘impressionistic’ by Noosa. You may have established a new fashion! And a free dinner to boot!
The first half was indeed frustrating and your thought on the effect of a Saints goal proved prescient. The whole team, who had not played badly in the first 45 but simply lacked a cutting edge, sat up and took notice of the clock. There is something to the observation that a good team expects their goal to come along shortly and sometimes fails to take the risk needed to score it. Maybe Southampton players relaxed a bit after taking a surprise lead and dropped their astonishing defensive vigour. Our press had been superb all game all match but it delivered the equaliser and the subs tilted the balance with upgrades in Trossard and Martinelli. The latter’s goal was truly a cracker.
A thoroughly deserved victory. Harder fought than we expected. Talk of a 4-0 cakewalk, or even better (my apologies) was somewhat optimistic. Feet to the ground please, Holics.
Thanks for the kind words gents. Probably the first time I have ever been described as ethereal. It’s a good plan to go for Liverpool tickets but I can’t make that weekend.
COYG
Cheers Pangloss. I’m glad you enjoyed your day out in the autumnal sun and that my restaurant recommendation of Lamezia still hits the spot. Block 113, upper tier, on the halfway line, are among the most expensive seats in the stadium, which might account for the staid atmosphere. It was a lot more raucous in the all standing North Bank lower!
A fascinating and ultimately successful day yesterday. Arteta has to learn how to rotate and I think his initial selection of Jesus and Sterling to go with Saka up top was fair enough. It was forced by injury but I really dislike Partey at right back. I’m not sure what would have been lost by playing Josh Nichols there until it was deemed time to bring on Tomi. Partey is too slow to turn and chase back and that means, unlike Timber and White, he makes no attempt to come past Saka and give an overlap option. I have seen much praise of Partey in recent games which I view with a slightly jaundiced eye. I have also seen suggestions of a new contract. Well not for me Clive as Andy Townsend used to say.
The first half reminded me of us at City with 10 men. Endless circling around their penalty box, some long range shooting and very few attempts on Ramsdale’s goal. The other impact of the selection was to force Havertz back into midfield. The subs, astutely made early, had the triple impact of bringing on two very in form players in Trossard and Gabby and also brought Havertz back to leading the line, his best position. Havertz has become the beating heart of this team, constantly linking, pressing, winning aerial duals and popping up in the penalty area. He has visibly grown in confidence and his equalising goal was a thing of beauty. Slid in by Saka he jinked left and thumped it home with his left foot. The best goal I have seen him score. I seem to remember much criticism of him 12 months ago in this bar. £65m now looking a bargain. The second, by Gabby was also a great goal, very similar to that of Leo against Chelsea at the Bridge last year. A fabulous swinging, arcing ball by Saka dropped onto the foot of Gabby (was Ramsdale a bit slow?) and he forced it home.
Southampton were better than I expected. I was very impressed by young Dibling, who skinned Calafiori a couple of times (I thought Calafiori was excellent other than this and he is already a firm fan favourite). They brought on the 6’7” Onuachu, a 30 year old Nigerian who I thought played very well, with, as they say, very good feet for a big man.
With the game won, in the dog minutes of injury time, we sang Ramsdale’s name over and over again. He was clearly very touched. Good luck big man.
So another win, still unbeaten, an excellent start to the season. This after a period tough on the team and match going fans both. We resume against struggling Bournemouth and Shakhtar Donetsk. The home game against Liverpool looms large. Come back safe chaps.
Oh shit.
https://x.com/skysportsnews/status/1842903321440313544?s=61&t=cVFjCyGkt4y-Ne45LtfqkQ
Fingers crossed Kai has the sort of knee problem that will clear up in time for our next match.
Monet, Degas, Renoir and now Pangloss ! Unfortunately I only own a piece of work by the last of those but a fine piece it is. Amusing, comprehensive in its lack of detail but enjoyable none the less. I have forwarded a copy to Amnesiacs International for inclusion in their upcoming Christmas Annual 2024. Just have to hope now that someone remembers to buy it 😳
One good thing I can’t remember and that is the referee’s name. He wasn’t perfect but I didn’t end up swearing at him enough times to remember it. I guess these days that must be a good thing. PGMOL did still manage to blot their copy book by taking a ridiculous age to decide that Martinelli was onside for his goal. He was exce when he came on, as was Saka throughout – another goal and two assists to his tally.
The pace of our play in the first half frustrated me a bit too but when you consider the schedule we’ve had over the past few weeks and the injuries we’ve had to contend with there was probably an element of energy conservation, or just plain tiredness.
The pace picked up brilliantly when our “first pick” forwards came on – and Havertz must have had an extra large orange at HT – he was superb through the second half.
The referee was Tony Harrington.
If you are a lover of Impressionists Trev, I commend the current “Monet’s London” exhibition at the Courtauld Gallery. Five star raves across the board.
Trev
The ref was ok and didn’t book Calafiori for what looked a heavy challenge in the second half . But his trot across the pitch just before half-time to get Declan Rice to move a corner all of an inch back was pedantic in the extreme especially as he couldn’t see the exact position of the ball from where he was .
GSD
A panel rescinded the red card. They felt he slipped . It was a Kavanagh decision and not a good one
Thanks C100 – I am. Yarwood, McGowan and Culshaw are my favourites ! Seriously, if my knee was better than it is, that sounds like a trip very worth making. Most art I look at at the moment is pretty much impressionist as I’m due for a cataract operation on Friday.
This getting older lark is not a lot of fun, is it ?
TTG – yep that incident at the corner was utterly stupid – even more so because Rice moved the ball probably less than an inch and it just rolled right back to where it started.
Mr Harrington seemed oddly placated though and made no more of it – if he even noticed …🤷♂️
Gabriel Teodoro Martinelli Silva, to give him his full name, Trev (as I learnt from the screen explaining the VAR decision in the stadium, which was thorough enough to also specify they deemed a possibly offside Merino to not interfere with play, perhaps it’s judging about that interference that took more time?). Otherwise, yep, didn’t really have any issue with the ref for once.
Ah yes TTG @ 17, that Rice corner thing was a bit ridiculous.
17 being 16, obviously…
C100@11: As I mentioned in the previous drinks, Partey is OK as a right back, but what is gained from playing him there, mainly his height, is more than offset by what is lost by not having him in his more natural position. Saka managed to have a pretty good game despite the absence of an overlapping full-back. That said, I would have been happy for Nichols to have played (he didn’t make the bench) or to have put Calafiori on the right and MLS on the left.
To be fair to a sizeable minority in the bar, there was always a view that there was a player in Havertz if Arteta could chip off the Chelsea caking to liberate the Bayer Leverkusen wunderkind trapped inside.
Good to hear that Rambo got a rousing reception.
Hope Kai is ‘resting’ his knee during the interlull rather than he has a serious injury.
If Havertz has a serious injury that would be awful news especially after Jesus’s very lacklustre performance yesterday.
If you get a chance look at the website and the Under 18 video of yesterday’s game against Birmingham. A couple of people are suggesting to me that the lad Max Dowman is incredibly talented and is reckoned to have a higher ceiling than Nwaneri . Certainly he had a couple of excellent moments yesterday. He is two footed and very elegant and he is still either 14 or just 15. He really does look like a star in the making
Spursiness is alive and well !
Brighton manager at half time. “Lads. It’s Tottenham”.
2-0 up, lost 3-2.
Spursy. Mate …!
Danny with the winner.
A very happy evening reading Spurs Twitter lies before me. They are fumin!
Nothing like a rumble after your Sunday lunch.
TTG@22: Dowman is highly regarded. He is playing for the U-19s in the UEFA Youth League games — and became the youngest scorer in the tournament’s history when they played Atalanta when he was still 14. He is a big lad for his age as well as being talented, so it seems he can cope with the step-up to playing physically stronger opponents. He is already in the England U-17 squad and has trained with our first-team squad. Nonetheless, his development will need to be managed carefully, but there are high hopes for him. One indication of that is that he has been given a squad number, which is rare for an U-15s player.
C100@26: 🙂
In other news, the new GHF Predictathon Leaderboard for Match Week 7 is posted. You know where to find it.
On the predictathon you go Scruz!
In other matters, I know many of you are devoted dog owners.
For the love of God, never let a Spurs player walk your precious dog. They can’t hold onto a lead!
I am having a lovely evening.🥃😂
I’m late to the party, didn’t see the game, only the goals on Arseblog News and so I’m in no position to comment – but that has never stopped me in the past and won’t tonight. I really liked the ‘homespun’ feel of your report, Pangloss. I can empathise enthusiastically with your ‘it all seemed a bit flat’ * and also tick the box on the ‘free meal’ experience (high five!) based on my visit on the previous week to watch Lesta. Sometimes our lack of ability to put our boot on the throat of a lesser/wounded opponent makes the watch a tough one. But hey, six points and seven goals in our last two home games is something that matey Ange from down the other end of Seven Sisters would tie his kangaroo down for, sport and eat every single one of the corks on his hat to achieve.
* I.e it lacked the electric frisson that Bath and I have come to enjoy while watching Arsenal Too down the road at The Cottage.
Talking of Spuds, I dined in Napoli tonight (fantastic city) and asked my waiter if he was a Napoli fan – “Yes Of course”. I asked him if Victor Osimhen was any good “Yes, but he can go, doesn’t want to be here, so leave, please”. As soon as I told him I was a Gooner he said “You know Tottnum got beat 3-2 at Brighton today?” – which I didn’t so treated him to a quiet chorus of ‘Tottnum are shit, Ole, Ole’. Good night out although Her Nellieness wasn’t overly impressed. Nor were several of the other restaurant guests. Still, can’t have everything.
Please keep David Raya particularly in your thoughts over the Interlull. Neto ( who can’t play in the Carabao because he’s cup-tied, is ineligible to face Bournemouth in the league as they are his parent club. If Raya gets injured Jack Porter or Tommy Setford woukd have to play down at the Vitality Stadium
He is suitably embedded TTG, I noticed recently that Raya had started a couple of times for Spain. Is Setford fit again? I don’t know but if he is then I’d expect him to start against Preston.
C100@28 – superb.
BtM@29 – don’t wander too far off the beaten in Napoli would be my advice….
Further to TTG’s point – do we have a list of all the first teamers who will be departing to play for their countries over the next fortnight? I’m hoping that Tomi, Zinchenko, Timber, White are all off games with a note from Matron, and Jorginho, Jesus and Sterling have not been picked.
Cheers Pangloss. Thoroughly enjoyable read that completely captured what it can be like in the stadium when you ‘feel’ a game but the memories of specific details aren’t quite there afterwards.
It was also a lovely reminder of what is, for me, a huge strength of the bar, namely that the spread of different correspondents and their unique styles means there is always something fresh to read, new angles and opinions to digest.
Top set of drinks too.
Unfortunately, we are at a point where a ref gets praised for not doing anything seriously bad. The run to get Rice to move the ball for the corner was seriously weird and raised a lot of questions.
How could he see from 50 yards where that ball was placed, to the inch?
Will this be a regular feature of his performances?
Was it a worrying sign of a man predisposed towards pointlessly putting himself at the centre of a football match, or was it the effect of the rigorous training refs must undertake?
Couldn’t he be doing something more useful with his superhuman powers of sight?
TTG.
In response to your point about Fernandes’ red card. I thought it was harsh at the time and he certainly did slip. But, having slipped, he kicked out at the player in a cynical attempt to bring him down. Given that PGMOL backs refs to the hilt, and given many worse decisions they have declined to overturn, I was surprised to see that Manure’s appeal on this one was successful.
“It was a Kavanagh decision and not a good one”. Heh! His signature move!
Preston tickets done. Goes down to gold members with zero credits tomorrow and then probably silvers and reds. Great chance to experience an away game.
Good stuff, C100. Haven’t done an away for ages (but Preston midweek not really doable), though I might still try to forage for Fulham tickets (on old favourite) depending when kick-off ends up being.
OM@31: Spain’s first choice kewper, Unai Simon, broke his wrist in the summer and will be off games for most of the rest of the year, so Raya is deputising in the meantime.
Ah, thanks Ned. I was wondering why Unai Simon was not in that squad.
Thanks Ned, I’d forgotten about his Simon’s wrist.
Raya, Saka, Declan and Saliba then in no particular order.
Talking of Napoli, an Italian chef friend of mine in Osaka calls
his restaurant Napoli Centrale. When we first met years ago I asked him
if he was a big Napoli fan and he told me he is not even from
Napoli and would never go there as they are all crooks! He just figured
Japanese wouldn’t have heard of Puglia where’s he’s actually from.
My grandfather would never have one in his kitchen for similar reasons, OM….
I should point out he was a chef. I didn’t mean that he used to invite random people to his home.
😂😂
Haha, CER. 😁
*plays simple pass forward in approach of the first of many expected interlull half-tons*
In acres of space, left by the Spurs defence, puts foot on ball, waves to friends and then chips a ball up to the line to ….
…bloke who only got a game because the team was one short and he brought his boots just in case, but still manages to lay off a sublime pass to…
Dummies it, letting it run through for…
Cheers Pangloss and thanks for the report on a game that I still haven’t seen. Your afternoon at the Italian restaurant and the game coincided with my morning at beginner cricket class which did not disappoint this beginner. At any rate, Three points is the all-important takeaway as it so often is, or should be, and on to the next one. Hoping Merino turns into something special for us.
Blasts it into the empty net with complete disregard for VAR
Well in bt8, fitting that you should get a fine 50 after your cricket class
Well in for the half-ton, bt8.
It is never too late to begin playing cricket.
Congrats on a fine half century, bt8.
Cricket is the finest expression of war by other means: the deployment of limited resources over a wide area , with skill, guile and no little effort required to win. Marvellous.
An important story especially for anyone who has ever toured the west coast of North America, or eaten salmon:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/07/salmon-klamath-river-california-oregon
A very good take on the events of yesterday on Arseblog today.
I particularly liked the euphemistic use of the term “ client journalism”.
That’s you, Lawton…..
Great finish, bt8.
My father worked for the Times for 48 years and ended his career as Publisher , quite an upgrade on joining as a messenger at age 14. I’ve always respected the editorial integrity of the paper although that has been strained in recent times . I’m therefore astonished and profoundly disappointed by the take in their sports pages today which suggest that C115y have taken the Premier League to the cleaners .
Arseblog references much more balanced and perceptive pieces by the Guardian and Independent which basically confirm that C115y’s success is that they have damaged the interests of their rivals rather than achieved a clear position of advantage themselves . In fact Miguel Delaney hints that the 115 charge hearing might be influenced in favour of the League because the APT and PSR rules are necessary and predominantly robust .
That was a great story bt8 @54, nice to see something going well in the world
@58 TTG
Your last sentence was my take on it too. Based on the outcome 115ty won’t be able to get any chunk of the 115 charges thrown out. It did help to draw the lines very clearly
for the main event.
I am not sure the purpose of 115ty’s victory proclamation nonsense though, they must know that it is just hardening public opinion against them.
CER @53 – doesn’t sound much like Russia’s interpretation of war …..
Arseblog is on the money with his last paragraph today. His mention of ‘client journalism’ made me think of the Enron scandal. The company squashed any journalistic inquiry into its accounts by controlling access (no favourable coverage; no access). For years, it was able to avoid public scrutiny of the massive accounting fraud that eventually led to its spectacular bankruptcy. It’s not that I am suggesting that MCFC is a house of cards like Enron; it’s just that it knows how to play the corporate communications game.
Having ploughed through the version of the tribunal’s findings that has been made public (quite a bit of it is redacted), I see that there is something in it for both MCFC and the PL, but far short of the complete victory both sides claim. Given the money they earn, the lawyers have to crow their wins, I suppose, however technical. I thought it was telling that the tribunal chose not to award damages or costs, only declaratory relief, which usually means the offending party can fix the harm to satisfy the offended party. To me, that doesn’t imply the big win that City claims.
MCFC’s letter to the other PL clubs saying, in effect, that the PL is lying to them about the tribunal’s outcome is a remarkable response in itself. Yet, we should interpret it in the broader context of the 115 charges. My 2 cents is that MCFC is systematically trying to undermine trust in the PL’s governance and to knock legal holes in the foundations of the league’s rules and regulations. Hence, its claim that the two (fixable) infringements of UK competition law that the tribunal found void the entirety of the related-party transaction rules (which the tribunal did not say, although it also didn’t say that they did not, as the PL implies).
We are long past the point where MCFC is overly concerned about public opinion, only about beating the 115 charges. The veiled threat in its letter to the other PL clubs of more legal proceedings if the PL goes ahead with amending its related party transaction rules to address the tribunal’s findings—and thus more PL legal costs for the other clubs to shoulder—indicates its determination (and deep pockets).
Whether this relentlessly aggressive approach will work remains to be seen. MCFC must see weaknesses in the PL’s rules that will cause the PL’s defences to fail, at least in places. I wonder if City beats enough of the 115 charges to claim vindication (and ‘enough’ will probably be quite a small number), whether it will be a Pyrrhic victory for both sides, especially if MCFC has created sufficient division and conflicting interests among the other PL clubs to mitigate sanctions against it.
A very thoughtful take Ned@62 . Your last point intrigues me. What sort of sanction would C115y be prepared to take? Is their position really that they really are completely innocent? Would they consider a plea bargain of some sort or might their escape plan be that they would look to revive the ESL?
In terms of points deductions is there an acceptable figure ? Looking at what happened to Everton and Forest a minimum of 20 would seem the very least that might result ( frankly I think it will be much, much more) . 20 points sees them lose the league title and probably CL football. 40 points sees them lose European football , 60 points might keep them in the division but no more and 80 points sees them relegated . If they get relegated , their player contracts will have clauses to reduce their salaries ( way behind what they could get elsewhere) . Would Guardiola be interested in a scenario like that. Would Haaland , De Bruyne, Rodri or any of their key players ? They’d effectively lose a season .
The nuclear scenario is they get relegated into Division Two. I think that unlikely ( sadly) but it does focus attention on how C115y play this . Do they try to blast apart the League rules or do they settle for a reduced punishment on a plea bargain. I don’t think Abu Dhabi would accept either unless Lord Pannick advises them they have limited options . I think if they lose they try to blow up the Premier League
Here’s a good piece on She Wore about the C130y v PL judgement and the minimal significance of the judgement on owner loans for Arsenal:
TTG @58, the Times is a very different organ from the globally respected newspaper to which your father devoted his career. Changes in ownership, a click-bait approach driven by declining sales and competition from new players and social media have seen its standards slip dramatically and its former position on a pedestal for the English middle classes wobble.
TTG@63: Like everyone else, including the PL, I suspect, I have no idea where MCFC’s red lines lie. Qatar has previous when it comes to staring down powerful adversaries taking it on, even when outnumbered. You can see that experience being brought to bear by MCFC in the 115 charges case: no ground given and an aggressive stance.
I would be astonished if its legal team’s Plan A was anything but to get the charges dismissed in their entirety by casting doubt on the validity of the PL’s rule book and the known looseness of its language. It is a high-risk, high-reward strategy, no doubt. Presenting this week’s tribunal ruling on related-party transactions as voiding the rules completely (although it doesn’t) is part of setting the stage for that. We will not see a public face from MCFC expressing anything except total victory is inevitable.
In private, there will surely be contingency plans for events turning out otherwise. I doubt there is an ‘acceptable’ punishment that MCFC would take without further question. Its contingency plans will turn on minimising the damage of defeat by making any punishment the PL imposes on it as potentially as expensive for the other PL clubs as possible, trusting that when there is money on the line, the clubs will make the PL buckle. If there is to be a negotiated settlement, then MCFC would want to negotiate from the position of strength.
‘Blowing up the Premier League’ would be the nuclear option. The question would be whether enough PL clubs could hold their nerve and rely on the principle of nuclear deterrence holding.
Whatever the perceived shortcomings of the Premier League’s rules might or might not be, the fact is that to become rules they were approved by a 2:1 majority. It’s a club you agree to join and the club has those rules. I refuse to believe you can get away with tearing that rule book up just because you’ve been caught breaking them.
TTG’s solution of relegating City to League 2 doestgo far enough for me. They should have enough points deducted for that number of aberrations to keep them in National League North for years to come.
I’m with Trev @67.
Inter & PNE tickets both going on sale to Silver members today (Wednesday) at 12noon and 2pm respectively.
I agree with Trev @67 too. I also want their titles from the seasons in question removed.
However, I expect some kind of horrible face-saving compromise will be the actual initial result, and my only vague hope being supporter outrage can force some meaningful punishment. Like everyone else I don’t like being taken for a c**t but that is exactly what 115ty’s owners think they can do. It is quite obvious and extremely annoying but if the PL clubs and their supporters are willing to bend over and take it then we will get what we deserve.
Just to be clear I believe if they are found guilty of breaking the rules C115y should be stripped of any titles that they have won in the period under review and players shoukd give back their medals which were won unfairly.
While I understand the sentiment relegating C115y outside the league would almost certainly force C115y to contemplate the nuclear option. It is inconceivable that they would contemplate four seasons outside the Premier League ; this is the very antithesis of sportwashing . You don’t wash much in the Northern Premier League! If we get into heavy point deduction territory it will have a huge impact on the management, playing staff and their finances . No young world star wants to work his wa6 up the pyramid fo4 years or established star while the remaining years of their career in oblivion . The genie is out of the bottle and was as soon as the PL charged C115y . We’ve got civil war .
It dawned on me that what we have not seen so far in stadia up and down the country are vocalised statements of the fans unhappiness with what City has done. Let’s be clear. They have systematically cheated to gain an advantage. In doing so they have totally skewed the finances of the game, right the way down to the lowest levels so that frankly the game is hugely overexpensive to watch, on tv and in the stadia, with profitability in toto well into negative territory. Thui results in clubs being pushed to the edge. I’m sure that part of the aggressive PR strategy they have followed is to cow supporters, to ensure that there are not embarrassing fan protests and songs developed which can appear at inopportune moments, for City, in televised matches. This oversight ought to be rectified.
Good idea @72, CER. It’s hard to believe it hasn’t already been done when you think about it. It doesn’t even need a song smith to write something as the perfect sk t is already regularly ringing out in the grounds –
🎼🎵🎶. Same old City, Always cheating 🎵🎶
I do like this City / Cheaty song idea. How about another one already in use so the change of words would really hit home –
🎵🎶. And it’s Mansour and City
Mansour and City FC
They’re by far the biggest cheats
The world has ever seen ! 🎵🎶
Despite the Times becoming the C130y mouthpiece (what’s in it for them, you may ask), the Totygraph (£) has a rational analysis of the judgements:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/10/08/manchester-city-premier-league-legal-case-apt-losses/
“Manchester City have paraded their triumphs in the arbitration with the Premier League like they might be the Champions League trophy, although as one wades through the 175-pages of the judgment it feels more like a story of what they did not win rather than what they did.”
bath@75: Thanks for the link. The Telegraph piece makes for a dispassionate read of all the charges that the tribunal did not find in MCFC’s favour, a list that far outweighs the three it did. The observation towards the end of the article that the City website links to a single page taken from a 175-page report, p 164, the one listing the charges which were decided in the City’s favour, is telling in its own right. They are creating an Orwellian world.
CER@72: Sadly, I fear the broadcasters would muffle any songs of protest to ensure the well-being of golden geese. Perhaps they already do. Now you make me think of it, I don’t hear the players’ individual songs when watching games anymore. I was going to ask in a previous drinks if ’60 million down the drain’ is still sung when Havertz scores because if it is, you wouldn’t know it from watching a TV broadcast.
Ned@76. That Havertz song *is* still sung. Never let it be said that Arsenal fans don’t do irony.
More to Ned@76. I like a good conspiracy theory at least as much as the next man, but I’d want a deal more evidence that broadcasters are deliberately messing with levels during crowd chants. I recall a previous discussion about chants related to the City charges, when C100 said that he’d heard a few attempts to start one, but that they didn’t gain any traction. At present, that’s the explanation that I’d incline to favour. If contrary evidence emerges I might well change my mind, as I certainly would if the cheque which the nice Emirati gentlemen just presented me doesn’t clear.
COYG FOMC
PG@77&78: That is good to hear — even if I can’t hear the chant on the TV. My observation was a general one that the background crowd volume seems lower throughout games than previously; I wasn’t suggesting that it varies according to the content of the chart. I also might not be able to hear the celebratory songs as TV producers seem to have found a fondness for the feed from the camera that tries to get into the huddle of players celebrating. Mark you, given how VAR works or not, I am half expecting them to start playing the sort of music that horror films use to heighten the anticipation of something bad about to happen.
An alternative protest would be for the PA to play Pink Floyd’s Money next time City come visiting. They could cut it off at the line, ‘Think I’ll buy me a football team’.
Pangloss@78 – Tv companies already do it. You can hear it sometimes when the sound changes to muffle some of the, er, ruder chants. I guess it’s just a case of mixing the sound rather differently. Cast your mind back to the empty stadia of Covid days. They piped fake crowd noise onto our screens. It’s not beyond the wit of man.
Personally I think once the fans start getting at City, they won’t be able to stop it as the genie will be out of the bottle. It will spread like wildfire so that every week their players and fans will experience it, wherever they play. Whether tv companies choose to muffle it won’t stop the transmission amongst attending fans and that will expand to wider society. Democracy in action perhaps.
And we know how much City’s owners love democracy.
The Ladies team lost 5-2 to Bayern in Munich tonight. One wonders if Mr. Eidevall is up to the job ?
TP5 pulled out of the Ghana squad with ‘illness’ so that is one less to worry about.
CER@81: Taking press freedom as a measure of democracy, Qatar ranks 84th in the latest World Press Freedom Index, a position enabled mostly by the deterioration of press freedoms under other regimes. Its 2024 score would have ranked it in the 130s five years ago.
From the Index’s country commentary:
Qatar’s traditional press is distinguished by the homogeneity of its coverage, with the same front page headlines reporting the official activities of the emir and his inner circle….Despite an easing of restrictions during the FIFA World Cup in 2022, journalists are left little leeway by the oppressive legislative arsenal and draconian system of censorship. A cybercrime law adopted in late 2014 and reinforced in 2020 imposes restrictions on journalists and criminalises spreading “fake news” online.
premierleague.com be warned!
CER@80 I was never sure during the lockdowns whether the crowd noise was added by the broadcasters or played over the stadium PA to provide encouragement for the fans. I had the idea from somewhere that it was the latter. Doubtless many passers by will be along to put us straight.
TTG’s comment at 82 takes me back to the late Wenger years. They aren’t happy memories and I shall return – now – to my usual policy.
It was broadcast not played in the stadium, Pangloss. The echoes would have been weird and noticeable had it been over the stadium pa.
As we are slowly edging towards a ton, England are still piling on the runs.
Great drinks all.
Broadcasters already adjust volume of crowd noise, as CER notes and as we have all heard. Broadcasters clearly have narratives they wish to push and ones they wish to minimise. They all also susceptible to pressure in various forms.
Pangloss is right to ask for evidence before assuming how Broadcasters adjust crowd noise but it’s also reasonable to ask what kind of evidence we could expect? Unless Broadcasters themselves actually come out and tell us (impossible) or a sound engineer of some sort whistle blows to an organisation interested in reporting it (extrememly unlikely) then I don’t know how we’d get any evidence.
In circumstances where evidence is unavailable, it is extremely good news for anyone behaving in an untoward manner if the prevailing public attitude is to believe everything is above board unless evidence shows otherwise. This stance doesn’t take into account what we already know about their willingness to manipulate their coverage.
I strongly dislike the deleterious effect of the labelling of any suggestion that things may being manipulated as a conspiracy theory, rather than a possible but unproven hypothesis. A scientist does not take an unproven hypothesis as an unreliable and crackpot theory until she finds the evidence to prove it anymore than she assumes it to be true.
I don’t really know what a good response is but I would suggest skepticism. I don’t think broadcasters act in good faith but I have no concrete evidence of how they may be messing with crowd noise, or to what ends.
Ollie. Is there any way to watch the cricket in France? I can only ever get radio coverage.
I’m rather waiting on how things fall out in regards to City’s charges. I appreciate the considered opinions of those in the bar as well as a few other places, but I’m out of my depth. There are too many factors at play and I don’t know what’s going to win out. Frankly, I won’t believe anything until it is has actually happened.
The whole thing is just another nail in the coffin of the beautiful game. A lot of unfathomably rich people are doing as they please because they think money entitles them to do so and the rest of us are hoping that legislation holds up in some form to prevent this, even though it’s decades too late. The story of our times.
Arsene is looking more like Cassandra every day.
Not that I am aware of, GSD (apart from Sky satellite options, I guess). I’m merely following the updates on the BBC website.
Personally, I like this commentary when I’m not in the UK. Knowledgeable, descriptive, funny and uses all the naughty words they can’t say on TMS!
You might like it Ollie and others.
Ha, thanks, GSD. In other surprising news, I have been notified of success in the Forest ballot, once more as a pair with Esso, so that’s three successes in a row as a pair (with a failure as a single for QSG in the middle of it).
However, I don’t know if the changes are volutary(allocating extra to silver in that block if some are available, is there less actual demand for Family Enclosure? and so they’ve worked out that can fill these spare seats): despite me not clicking on the ‘family enclosure if you fulfill the criteria’ box, while I haven’t checked where the Forest tickets are, the other two have been in block 27, which, on the Ticket Exchange Map, is labelled as ‘Family Enclosure’. It all feels a bit odd.
Excerpted from Dan Sheldon’s article in The Athletic:
“Are people placing bets on City being relegated?
Yes, which is why their odds have shortened from 33/1 to 12/1.
“The kind of people backing it are your regular punters in the street, placing bets of £1, £5 and £10,” says Freeth. “They are the sorts of bets we are laying.
“We are laying quite a considerable amount of those bets, hence why the price has dropped from 33/1 to 12/1 over those months.”
Freeth noted that Bet365 has “built liabilities into seven figures”, meaning if City are relegated this season, their payout to customers totals more than £1million.
“We have to protect ourselves because it is such a volatile situation and that’s why we haven’t been offering 2,000/1,” Freeth adds. “Manchester City could win the next 10 games on the bounce but the 12/1 price wouldn’t move a great deal. It is not about results on the pitch, it is about results in the courtroom.”
GSD@88: In the US during Covid, the NFL took the dual approach of producing a stream of fake crowd noise that could be pumped through the public address system at a stadium and a separate stream of fake crowd noise for the broadcast of the game. The streams were club-specific (you don’t really get away fans in US pro sports), and the home team had the option of choosing which stream to use. This was all documented in an NFL memo to the teams supplementing its 2020 Game Operations Manuel. The NFL controls the broadcast audio of all games so it had the audio engineering infrastructure to do it.
Punters have ever liked to bet on what they want to happen.
I wonder what odds I can get on the 115ty board being sent to
Wormwood Scrubs 😂😂
bt8@94: That article in the Athletic read like a bit of messaging by Bet365’s executives directed at the shareholders of a bookmaker that lost $77.6 million on revenues of $4.3 billion in its last financial year. ‘Oh, look, sir, we’re being terribly prudent. Really, sir.’
Odds of 12/1 still imply a 92% probability that City won’t be relegated. The shortest odds being offered on City’s relegation today are 6/1. Those imply an 86% probability that City won’t be relegated.
Picks the ball up on the edge of his own penalty area, punts it off the back of baby haaland’s humble head from where it deflects wide to
..for an instant cross into the path of…
BAZOOM
Re: Ned @97. You understand the numbers much better than I, who have not laid sny bets either way. Which is not to say that I wouldn’t like the bookmakers (as much as anybody) to notify quite promptly me when Ci115ty are relegated.
Well in for the ton bt8
Well in for the half ton, bt8.
Saka limping off injured in the England game, fingers crossed it was precautionary
>>>>>>>